Pope Leo XIV closed his catechesis on Sacrosanctum Concilium by defending the liturgical reform: the faithful, he said, needed to celebrate "more consciously and actively, not as strangers and silent spectators." Michael Matt of The Remnant has a question about that. Were the saints, martyrs, popes and virgins before 1969 not participating either?

That is the argument in this conversation, and it goes further than a complaint about tone. When St. John XXIII opened the Second Vatican Council, he explicitly denied that the Church was in crisis and condemned the prophets of doom. Pope Leo has now said the Council changed the Mass so that Catholics could finally be receptive to God's grace. Both cannot be true. Michael Matt walks through the contradiction, answers Fr. Thomas Reese's claim that traditional Catholics are simply being disobedient, and explains why he believes the traditional Latin Mass will one day be the Mass of the Church again.

Recorded live on A Catholic Take, Wednesday 26 August 2026.

CHAPTERS
00:00 "They Are Strangers, They Are Not Participating"
01:06 What Pope Leo Actually Said
01:20 Michael Matt Joins the Show
01:56 "A Tragic Moment in the History of Our Beloved Church"
02:29 Were the Saints Deficient Before 1969?
02:55 John XXIII Said There Was No Crisis in the Church
03:52 Who Actually Wrote the Pope's Speech?
04:49 The Issue Is Never the Issue — It's the Revolution
05:09 A Defanged Catholicism With No Requirements
07:03 Is the Novus Ordo Here to Stay?
07:52 "The Novus Ordo Is on Life Support"
09:05 Fr. Reese: "Why I Hate the Old Latin Mass"
10:01 Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and the Social Kingship
11:02 The Statistics Rome Won't Mention
13:21 Obedience — But to Which Pope?
15:07 Everyone Gets Mercy Except One Kind of Catholic

REFERENCED ON AIR

• Sacrosanctum Concilium, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 4 December 1963
• Pope St. John XXIII, Gaudet Mater Ecclesia, opening address to the Council, 11 October 1962
• Pope Paul VI on the Church's "auto-destruction," 7 December 1968
• Traditionis Custodes, 16 July 2021
• Fr. Thomas Reese SJ, "Why I hate the old Latin Mass: a confession," Religion News Service
• Dom Alcuin Reid's response to the Holy Father's catechesis, via Diane Montagna
• Peter Kwasniewski, The Once and Future Roman Rite

MICHAEL MATT AND THE REMNANT
The Remnant Newspaper: https://remnantnewspaper.com/
Remnant TV: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRemnantvideo
The Catholic Underground podcast

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