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Mark and Katherine are joined in conversation by Jonathan Pageau, known to many of you as host of The Symbolic World podcast. He begins by expressing his thoughts following the murder of Charlie Kirk, including what it tells us about the point we are now at. We go on to talk about the Post World War II consensus breaking down, the confusion around symbol and that which is symbolised, the meaning of masculinity and femininity, the dangers of science uncoupled from the good and the thinking behind the pressure to create 'one-shoe' for people with only one leg.

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